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[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:42 PM, Friday, March 20th]

TT,

I'm going to give a quick response now and will reply further later (I'm at work right now in a conference call)

I hear everything you're saying. My lies continued and continued, my defensive behaviour continued and continued. You know my story.

How did I stop? In many ways it is still who I am, my recent post on discussing thoughts and feelings confirms this. Even today, I am battling defensive triggers. I know I can overcome them and most of the time I do, but the man who lied, got defensive and acted in the terrible ways I did "IS STILL THERE" I imagine that part of me will always be there, I just now try to act in a more emotionally mature way. Feel the negative feelings coming and don't allow them to manifest.

For me, it is not a case of fighting the wayward in me, that did not work and resulted in shame spirals and anger. Now I accept that is who I was. I accept I lied, I accept I got angry, I accept my past. This is not to say I am happy with these choices, it means I accept I did it. I also know that these feelings are still there, I still have defensive feeling but I try to intercept them and understand them. Then I can chose to react in a more understanding and empathetic way.

It is hard to get this mentality working, I was a complete asshole for such a long time. BUT I chose to be that asshole. So, surely I can chose not to be?!? I had to chose to stop, it is as simple as that (despite the difficulty we both have in doing it). You need to want to make the choice to make changes to yourself. I mean really want to. I wish I could find the words to explain this in more detail. I hit the lowest point in my life before I actually started making changes. I woke up one morning and that was that. I needed to be the better me and START actually making changes, real change, not superficial fluff changes. REAL changes for me, not to try and placate BS or people on the internat. Only when I chose to be real could I be more supportive to BS.

I am still on that journey, quite a way to go. However, the feelings inside are better, my reactions are less defensive, I do feel empathy, my speed of intercept of defensiveness is better. I did only a few weeks ago have a complete revert back to old ways. Anger and defensiveness came back and I missed the opportunity to intercept. I learnt from this and hopefully next time I feel as bad as I did that day I can use the skills to be more emotionally mature. Look, everyone has a bad day, everyone reacts to situations with negative emotions, everyone gets angry...However, we really can't. when we're feeling it, we need to acknowledge it immediately and talk to BS. Explain the trigger as soon as we can and talk through how we came through it.

I read on here a few years ago a post by someone saying "Just don't" feeling angry? Well just don't. Want to get defensive? JUST DON'T. The post made it sound like I was in control of my anger or defensiveness?!? I dd not get it. Then one day I did. Of course I am in control of my reactions. The fact we can lie, we can make up an excuse or a justification. These are not magic from the ether, they are choices. So, that being the case, SURELY we can chose not to?!? Yeah, we can. So......When being defensive....recognise it....and JUST DON'T

Therapy. I think that’s your next step.

I can’t help but think you re repeating a pattern nd responding to that pattern the same way over and over. I think it likely originated in your childhood and you likely learned this behavior trying to deal with a domineering parent.

When your wife gets angry (justifiably) you are back in that little boy role growing up. It’s engrained. A therapist should be able to help.

The fact your wife is still here with you makes me believe that she also has some healing to do. She is just as engrained in these patterns as you are. I don’t know her or why but someone with a good relationship with themselves wouldn’t be still dealing with this. Do you have a theory as to why she stays?

And to be clear it’s not that I think you are evil or unredeemable. Or even that I don’t think you sincerely want to change. It’s just you have been in this cycle for so long that I don’t think you are going to be able to fix this without some sort of professional help. Is that a possibility at all?

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[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:42 PM, Friday, March 20th]

I don’t think MC is going to help. I think MC is good when both people are healed enough to work on the relationship.

If you are going to invest at all invest in IC for you. If that’s not possible, are there support groups out there that maybe you could join? I think what you are doing hasn’t worked/isn’t working. I think Bulcy has had similiar issues and hopefully he will come back and tell you what’s worked for him.

For me, I have not struggled with impulse control. I have learned to react to things differently, but that has been about being mindful of what I want and why and acting accordingly. I think if that was going to work for you it would have. I think there is something deep down that is insecure inside of you so when faced with an obstacle you freeze up inside nd let your habits take over.

Do you have a domineering parent? What was home life like for young tiny tim? I know that seems irrelevant, but honestly if you find where it started. It becomes fr less powerful. You can then remind yourself why that time didn’t serve you. You need to find a Way to heal that insecurity, that lack of believing in yourself, learning to love who you are becoming. You are spinning your wheels, so something more structured needs to be introduced.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:00 PM, Friday, May 9th]

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[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:42 PM, Friday, March 20th]

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[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:43 PM, Friday, March 20th]

I want to say I understand it’s not simple or I truly believe you would have done it.

So my mom and sister were both raving lunatics at times. And I personally feel that when you live like that through your formative years you become filled with toxic shame.

I may have told you this before but shame is not always just an emotion. Guilt is an emotion triggered by things we have done wrong. And shame came be that way. But people who grow up the way we did have this underlying feeling that we are bad. This is not we feel bad. But that we ourselves are bad.

We tend to take the temperature of others feelings in a constant way and often if it’s not anything but jovial it gives us anxiety. Because of this deep feeling of shame we can react a number of ways, defensive was mine. Yours seems to result in anger. I used to lie all the time when I was young .Sometimes to be more interesting because if you live like I did it was a way of trying to seem like you are normal. But especially if it was something that I believed would make someone see that I was bad.

It didn’t manifest with the same sort of issues as you have but at the root of it, I think that part might be similar. I believe that perhaps you had it worse and also men often go to anger rather than sadness because anger feels strong. I am sure I probably told you to try the book Rising Strong by Brene brown because that is my go to for shame. I think one thing you could do is try writing your dad a letter (you aren’t sending it) and really try and talk to him about the effects of how he was as a dad. I know that sounds blvery woo woo, but I think you need to start processing how that effected you so you can start to let go of some of that.

Then I want you to think about that boy is still you. Think about being a safe place for him as if he is one of your kids. How can you reparent him to feel safe and loved?

Again, woo woo. But this sort of stuff is standard therapy assignments. And while you will not immediately get better it will start raising more questions and more awareness. The more that happens the more you will be able to work with it.

If you can’t find a support group exactly for what you want- recovery is recovery. Any 12 step type program may be utilized because all that stuff is coping.

The biggest thing I learned coping from is Eckhardt Tolle. Very very woo woo, but if you stick with it, what he teaches will help you with mindfulness, it will help you get peace and help you stop the endless cycle you are in. The best book for me was the power of now. But he has podcasts and other forms of learning out there.

That’s my free therapy for you. Let me know how it goes.

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[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:43 PM, Friday, March 20th]

In terms of professional support and help, costs are an issue but I have suggested that we try MC and I have also looked again today at IC but she is not interested and doesn't believe it will work.

From my experience going into MC when you or BS are not in "the right place" is a waste of time and money. We paid a MC for 6 months while I was still telling lies. I lied to MC as much as I led to BS. No help whatsoever. I will also say we had a shit counsellor who should have challenged me more, not excused my behaviour, not excuse my infidelity on "unmet needs" and should not have made a joke about having an affair with me while we both went to an individual session with her.

When your wife gets angry (justifiably) you are back in that little boy role growing up. It’s engrained. A therapist should be able to help.

This makes so much sense, especially to me about me. Thanks HO

I think Bulcy has had similiar issues and hopefully he will come back and tell you what’s worked for him.

IC did not work until I let it. That's to say until I stopped telling lies to anyone who could help, they could not help. I did find some fantastic support away from SI (well kinda) I have built a fantastic friendship with a poster on here and he has helped me more than he will ever know. Some of our communication has been blunt but honest. I started to learn how to be honest with myself and to work on my own shame, attempting to take the advise given by so many on SI that I needed to "love myself". I signed up to an online support group based in the US. The group designed for men helped me with emotional intelligence, trauma, infidelity, anxiety etc. I am not sure about advertising other support forums on here, so I'll not add a link, but if you google mens group, I'm sure you'll not go far wrong. I have advertised SI on this site, so hopefully it is a mutually beneficial thing.

I just had to want to stop being the wayward me and start being a more authentic me....Although being authentic to me about me was the first challenge.

"nothing is worse than what I have already done".

Try to remember this.

*This seems so simple right lol, I wish it was because I'm tired and I'm exhausted and I know my BS is just broken also. I have tried to find tis thead you mention but can't seem to locate it.... If you know anymore about it I'd like to read it.*

From memory, it was not a specific thread, just a comment on a thread and I'm sure I'm quoting it how I understood it. The point being made was important though. It leads onto "making choices". That every time we make a choice, we have to make the right choice. Just do it or don't do it. Whichever choice is the right one for your marriage.

The biggest thing I learned coping from is Eckhardt Tolle. Very very woo woo, but if you stick with it, what he teaches will help you with mindfulness, it will help you get peace and help you stop the endless cycle you are in. The best book for me was the power of now. But he has podcasts and other forms of learning out there.

Mindfulness is hugely important, I thought it, CBT ACT and other help out there was to quote HO "woo woo". I was not in the right place to receive the message and I probably did not have the right teacher. I later studied CBT and ACT with a different professional and this worked really well.

TT you have my e-mail, so please reach out anytime.

People have talked about these habits and reactions being engrained, and it's true--your brain forms pathways that go from a stimulus to a practiced reaction like a super highway. You may know of other roads, but your brain will almost always take the fastest, easiest route. The good news is, brains are plastic and with practice, we can change which routes are the freeways. The more you practice a different reaction, the stronger that road becomes. One trick is to practice taking those routes when not in crisis situations so you can build them up. Look for small opportunities in your day to practice honestly, humility, gratefulness, or whatever else is the opposite of your negative patterns. That way, when faced with harder things, your "freeway" will be more likely to be the healthier response.

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[This message edited by Tinytim1980 at 12:43 PM, Friday, March 20th]

Wow. I thought I was the only one going thru this type of thing. I will admit that I've done DARVO too many times in the past AND I understand why he (bs) feels the way he does. I have tried to make changes and thought I was succeeding a couple of times. I was told I didn't change anything and am still doing the same thing. I'm at my wits end! I'm so tired of being told how I'm feeling or what I'm going to do next, being yelled at, called names, told I'm a liar, told to leave the house, etc. I asked my husband what I could do to make amends for the incident the other night and was then asked what I was willing to do. I aaid I'd do anything and was laughed at, again. He refused to tell me because I don't answer his questions, ever, apparently. So, needless to say, I never did get any insight as to what he wanted me to do. In the past he's told me ways to make amends, which I also failed. I know what these things are but they didn't seem like things I could do to make amends for the other night. Ugh,
I'm told it's all my fault, all he did was ask me a question and I got defensive. I don't see it that way but I can't argue or debate him because I'll be told I'm denying his feelings, again. Yet he tells me how I'm feeling all the time and twists my word just enough so it meets his narrative but doesn't represent what I actually said.
I could write so much more but this is already too long. Lol
I'm sorry you are going thru all this, I definitely feel your pain. I don't have any advice for you though, just wanted to tell you that you are not alone. We have some changes to make, we owe them that much and I guarantee it isn't going to be easy at all